Hi Friends!
I’m trying something different with this week’s post! A lot of things, in fact.
First, did email-receivers notice the new banner artwork?! My brilliant friend and incredible artist, Amanda Burnham, did such a great job taking what was in my head and putting it in art form and I just love how it turned out and that you all get to see her work each week!
Second, this week’s post is an interview! And not only that, it is an audio interview. With all of the interviews I’ve been conducting for the book, I was inspired and encouraged by some folks to try my hand at a podcast/audio post format and I’m so happy that Alanna Kieffer was willing to be my inaugural audio issue/Cramming for the Apocalypse podcast guest. You can either listen to the 35-minute interview or read the full (somewhat edited for clarity) transcript below.
Also, a disclaimer: The audio is okay in most parts, but I’m not an audio expert in the least, so some transitions/cuts are a little rough and my intro/outro audio is a bit tinny, so bear with me. As I learn more, refine my skills, and find the time to dive into learning about this stuff, I hope it’ll get better/more professional as we go on, but I know I’m among friends here and you’ll appreciate it nonetheless ;).
In April 2022, I officially launched my research for this book project by taking a clamming class on the Oregon Coast with my friend, Lindsey. In advance of the class, I began to get nervous. It was a really rainy, cold spring in the PNW and I just pictured myself out there in the mud flats, soaking wet and miserable.
It turned out to be anything but miserable. It was truly an incredible experience, and not just because it was resplendent and sunny. The fun and joy I felt were partially due to the instructor, Alanna Kieffer, who so very clearly had an outsized affection for the ocean and the creatures therein. Her enthusiasm was contagious. And as I approached the year anniversary of launching my immersive research, I thought I’d interview Alanna. And bonus, she agreed to be featured in my inaugural audio issue/podcast episode of Cramming for the Apocalypse.
Elizabeth Doerr: Thank you so much for chatting with! Let’s start by telling me about yourself and your various roles.
Alanna Kieffer: My name is Alanna Kieffer and I wear a lot of hats. But I'm a marine science educator as a whole. I've been working for Oregon seaweed for the past two years. So I'm farming dulse seaweed on the Oregon coast, but also pushing that into communities. So doing a lot of community outreach around seaweed and yeah, just educating people in that world, but on the side do a lot of intertidal for gene and just exploration on my own and have been pretty excited to get involved in that and like more of an educational pulling other people in as well. But yeah, longtime and marine science education.
ED: Tell me a little bit about how you got to where you are today.
AK: It's been a journey. I moved to Oregon about 10 years ago, me and my mom moved from the East Coast to Seaside where I finished high school. I knew forever that I wanted to get involved with marine biology so when we came out here, I immediately started working in intertidal systems. I really knew nothing about the ocean in general. And as a high schooler I was working at an environmental education program down at the base of Haystack Rock in Cannon Beach, which is really focused on protection through education. So in order to teach people about it, I had to learn everything I could, and I really cherish that I was getting this immediate hands-on experience. I wasn't doing anything in the world of academia. But I was in high school spending every day in the intertidal with ID books and with other people who had spent years in this ecosystem and really just learning from there. And I think that sparked my interested. I realized that no matter what I did in marine biology, I needed to be educating people and working on the communication side of things.
So I went to OSU [Oregon State University] and studied marine biology. I went to Australia studied there, and just traveled around and saw different ocean ecosystems. They have warm water coral reefs, which we do not have. I went to Catalina Island, California, and spent two years teaching and working with kids there. It was like a marine science camp where kids would come over from school and do their week-long outdoor Ed camp. We were taking them snorkeling and kayaking and hiking and doing all this like really amazing outdoor adventure stuff it wasn't until COVID that they booted us off the island. So I didn't necessarily choose to come back to the Oregon Coast, but I came back to the Oregon coast.
It just happened to be that this Seaweed Farm [Oregon Seaweed] was being built, which was like a very full-circle dream of mine that I never really expected to happen here in Oregon. I finished helping them build the farm and started working around seaweed. I guess I became this a seaweed salesperson, but it was really just education around seaweed and trying to teach people in the community how to use it, what it is , and why we should be using it.
And then got involved with workshops through WildCraft Studios, which was also just really exciting. I really missed the group education stuff and was happy to jump right back into it.
ED: Tell me a bit about the seaweed journey because one of the things that really stuck out to me when we took the class was how excited you are about seaweed. And I had never heard that seaweed was a potential superfood and could be a solution for sustainable farming and food growing. And so I just want to know where that energy comes from and what excites you about it?
AK: I honestly don't know where it comes from, except that on Catalina Island I was surrounded by kelp forests. My play time in the ocean was diving through kelp. And just being fully immersed in that ecosystem.
I think it's always funny because for people who are in the world of marine biology, you hear about seaweed farming going on. But I realized very quickly that people who are not in that world, it's different. People don't hear about it, nor do they know anything about it. So when I heard that it was going on here, it was through a fisherman who had no idea that I was remotely interested in this. He was kind of like, “This has been like a dream of yours? You know about seaweed farming?”
Oregon Seaweed is the first farm that's popped up here, and it’s picking up steam around the country. I think I was first interested as someone who loves those ecosystems and loves seaweed, in our natural environment, but then to be able to work with it in an industry that's like trying to introduce the general public into it as a food source is also huge.
My whole family works in the food service. So this is a whole other full circle deal where like, you know, my dad owned a restaurant, my mom is a food writer, my brother's now a chef. And so I grew up around food. And now I'm working in the food systems like through the ocean, which is just this whole other track. I just have a general enthusiasm toward anything in the ocean. And I think when it's things that are literally here and helping our planet, and feeding people I can see that there's excitement around it fuels me to keep teaching about it.
ED: Let's talk about the ocean in general and intertidal systems where a lot of your work is involved. For those who aren't involved with the ocean or even have a sense of what an intertidal system is and what the significance of an intertidal system is, can you explain a little bit more?
AK: So the intertidal system or zone in the ocean is the area between the tides. So when the tide goes out, it'll hit a certain low point. And when it comes back in it covers that whole area that was just uncovered. Anything that is in that zone is considered the intertidal zone.
In Oregon, we have one of the most diverse intertidal ecosystems on the planet. Our Ocean is super nutrient-rich and we get really pretty big tidal swings. We have like a 10-foot tide change, which is pretty significant. Tides are different all around the world, but because our oceans are really nutrient-rich, it also fuels everything in this ecosystem. Oregon has these microclimates all over it. There's mountains everywhere, there's the coast, you get these different environmental conditions from one town to another. And that's kind of how I think of the intertidal zones. There are so many rocks and crevices and different tidal heights and you get all these different conditions, which allow a huge amount of organisms to settle in these different areas, these little pockets of the rocks.
It's like a scavenger hunt every time you go into the intertidal zone, you see the big organisms, right? You see these giant green sea anatomies, you see crabs, you see the things that are easy to spot, but once you really start diving into it and stare at one little crevice for 10 minutes, you just see what you can find. It really brings to life how much is living in these environments, and that's like one rock of 300 miles of coastline that are all covered in different ecosystems.
It's just a really diverse and unique area and pretty resilient in terms of what can grow there. Imagine 30-foot waves all winter long crashing into these rocks, and the fact that these animals are still there, it's just kind of mind-boggling.
ED: That's so cool. I grew up in the Inland Northwest in Spokane. And so we didn't go to the coast that often. And now, anytime we go to the coast, I want to find a tide pool. My kid is obsessed because there's just so much there. Immediately you see there are things moving around in there, so it catches your eye pretty quickly.
AK: Yeah, definitely. It's so colorful and there is movement. And there's a lot of sound. People are always shocked when they walk up to the rocks and realize that they can hear noises.
ED: Totally. So, this whole project is about climate change and climate action. What are you seeing in these intertidal systems being affected by climate change? And what are actions that you think are essential in protecting these areas?
AK: That’s a really good question. I've seen changes in only the 10 years that I've lived on the Oregon coast. A lot of the changes have been hard to pin specifically, but we have pretty strong ideas that they're all human-caused to some degree. I was here for the sea star wasting event that went on along the whole West Coast of America. And within our intertidal systems, we used to have hundreds of sea stars all over the rocks. And within a month, we lost like 90% of our sea star populations. And that is one of the bigger animals that you see in the tide pools. They're super colorful, so they're the thing everyone goes to see and picture when they think of Oregon's tide pools.
That was a huge change. Universities all over have been monitoring what's going on after that, and how the intertidal systems are changing. I think it's like any organism when you think of changes going on on land. But all these animals have a way to deal with huge waves crashing on the rocks, sometimes things do get dislodged, and animals can come back. Ecosystems can kind of come back to what they were. But it's when these drastic changes are occurring with such small intervals in between them, that they can't really bounce back to the population that it was before something else has gone on to disrupt it again.
So we're seeing similar patterns, but it's happening closer together. There's not as much time for these things to repopulate the areas that they were in. There's a lot of work done at OSU and Dr. Bruce Menge’s lab. If you don't know him, you should look him up. He’s like the grandfather of the intertidal systems. He has been doing work around here for like 50 years, if not more, and has seen and tracked those changes in all of his research. It's been pretty interesting to see. We're hopeful though. There's a lot of good stuff going on.
ED: That's great. So, let’s talk about foraging, because that's how we met. You taught the clamming class that I took last April in 2022. And it was this beautiful resplendent day. I have to admit, it was such a rainy winter and early spring, I was like, oh my god, we're going to be out in the mud and pouring rain. However I think I would have had as much fun if it was raining anyway, but it helps that we woke up and it was beautiful, sunny weather. So can you tell me a little bit about the classes you teach? What is the intent of those classes? What are you hoping for attendees to participants to gain from the experience?
AK: Yeah, so I do the class you took, the clamming and seaweed farming class. So it's convenient that our Oregon Seaweed farm is right next to this huge mud flat in Tillamook Bay, which is this hugely dense clamming area. So we go to the mud flats, and we do some clamming and then we walk over to the seaweed farm and you get a tour of the farm and can hear about the seaweed industry as a whole.
And then I do a rocky intertidal foraging class, which is more focused on mussels and seaweeds and other crustaceans that you find in the rocks, so these are both ecosystems that are exposed during low tide. But because of the conditions, one is just mud and one is super rocky. You get totally different animals that live there. They’re two different focuses for foraging and education as a whole.
I think with foraging workshops are really neat. For years before this, I've led a lot of just pure educational ocean workshops, and taken people into these ecosystems, but they’re not necessarily going home with things that you can cook and eat. I think with foraging and seeing all this wild food all around our coast, and really all around our state, really connects people to these areas more than I ever could have imagined.
There are a lot of people who might not be interested in just a purely educational class, but they want to go home with something tangible that they can show off or use in the future. And that's where the foraging really comes into play. You can get hands-on, you can learn about what is safe and what is sustainable in this ecosystem, and what is okay to be taking home with you. And then finding ways to incorporate it into your diet. There are a lot of nutritional benefits around all these foods, but they're also just right here. They're abundant, and they're right in our backyards. I think our whole pandemic lockdown really influenced people to learn about where their food is coming from and get more involved with just being able to find food. Because [an increase in interest in nature classes] was definitely something that WildCraft mentioned to me.
ED: What is something that you think is important for foragers to know before they go out? And what should they keep in mind when they're foraging?
AK: Yeah, this is a good question. I think it's a fine line of having that attitude of “just go out there and figure it out on my own” after doing some research online. I think that is really valuable, obviously, when you can like go figure something out on your own. But I think around the ocean, there are a lot of safety things that I never really thought about when I moved here. The ocean is a crazy place. It's not super predictable. And I think with tides and with the safety like wandering through the rocky intertidal, there's a lot of sharp things, there are the waves, there is a lot of weather that we get that just isn't necessarily as conducive to foraging. With mushroom foraging, in which I don't really lead mushroom foraging workshops, there's the fear of finding the wrong mushroom. And that's kind of the thing you have to worry about. In the rocky intertidal, there are not really things that you're going to eat that can kill you, but there are really strict safety protocols that are nice to know. And there's algae bloom. Some things that you really have to be checking up on the day that you're about to forage. So it's just these small details that I think it is really valuable to go with somebody or at least really, really do your research before you go, and know the area before you're fully diving in headfirst to the intertidal systems.
ED: And what about kind of the responsibility on foragers? One thing I found handy was the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife restrictions around having the cap on the number of clams we could forage. I mean, it's tricky. It's so tempting to just keep going, especially when you find these clusters of clams, and you're like, “this is amazing!” I'm just gonna keep putting them in my bucket, but it's handy to have that cap. But I think more generally speaking, it speaks to this notion that we should be responsible about the way we're foraging and how we're foraging. And so I'mcurious about that, generally speaking, and what are your thoughts about it?
AK: Yeah, I think the biggest thing to say is that Oregon and the West Coast do a phenomenal job in terms of monitoring species populations, and having these numbers and these regulations in place that reflect the work that people do to get that population data. It's like somebody's life work to be collecting all those numbers and to make sure the numbers are sustainable.
Like you're saying, it's really tempting to go into these places, and just take everything you can. My biggest example with this is, it's not even the clams, its mussels, because you're limited to 72 mussels, which is a huge amount because our mussel populations are not struggling, they're doing really well. They’re a super sustainable food to take. But never have I gone into the intertidal and needed to take 72 mussels. And this is something that I really stress in those classes. You all want to share this with friends. Sure, if you have like a big dinner party, take 72 mussels if you need them.
I do this myself. Every time I'm out there harvesting things, in the back of my mind, I’m thinking about the amount of time it’s going to take to process the food that you take home with you. And that amount of time plus the fact that you have to do it within two days, seafood doesn't stay good forever in your fridge, you know, so you need to process or eat it within about two days. And so it often depends on what I'm doing that night or if I have plans the next day and what I even have the ability to process that day.
So it's these little things to think about when you're out there. And I think for people who don't live at the coast, that's probably even more of a struggle because you're here and you think “I want to take as much as I can right now.” But really to put the time in your head of still being able to process it and use it right. Because food waste is still an issue. Just because there are a ton of mussels on the rocks doesn't mean you should just take them all and then let some of them go to waste. It’s really being intentional with what you're doing and what you're taking when you're out there.
ED: Being someone who's not living on the coast, my friend Lindsey, who came with me and I kept saying, “it’s so tempting [to harvest more].” But really in the end, what she and I [harvested], we used the little ones to steam that night. And then [we discovered], it takes a lot to process the big ones, it's kind of a nerve-wracking experience. They're still alive and you have to cut into this live thing in order to kill it?
AK: It really connects you with where your food is coming from. I think it's powerful.
ED: It really does. I mean, it does. Having to actually process it yourself was really helpful for me and with the big cockle clams, especially because how big they are, it is kind of nerve-wracking. I think when you had shown us the first demonstration, the shell cracked and so it's big foot came out. I could not stop thinking about that when I was processing our clams. I was like “oh my god, this thing is alive.” And it brings a little bit more respect to the actual thing that you're processing because I got this here, and now I have to do right by it in some way. Yeah.
So if attendees learn or gain one thing from your classes, what do you hope that would be?
AK: I think it's a desire to want to continue protecting these ecosystems. So whether or not you live at the Coast, or you live in a city, you are directly and if not indirectly connected to these ecosystems. It could just be the food that you eat, but also, most of the oxygen we breathe is coming from seaweed in the ocean. I think if people know this, they're definitely getting behind what we can do to protect these ecosystems.
But it's really just the small changes in your day-to-day life to not be using carbon or emitting carbon as much. It's really easy these days to get wrapped up in the doom and gloom of what might be going on in the world and feel pretty helpless. And I think just getting into these into the environment that you live in, and really experiencing what it's all about, and what it provides us with is pretty powerful to get you to make a small change.
ED: What are some what are some of your favorite resources that you recommend to folks at resources and also like, ocean-related action steps that people like really practically can take?
AK: I feel like seafood sustainability is such a multifaceted and complicated topic. But the Monterey Bay Seafood Watch is a great one if you like to eat seafood, but want to make sure that you're doing it in a way that's not completely harming our oceans and wild populations of fish. The Monterey Bay Seafood Watch will not only tell you species that are good to eat, but how they were harvested, or where in the world they were harvested, which can tell you a lot about practices.
I also think just not being afraid to ask questions when you go out to eat if you're ordering seafood, wondering where that fish is coming from. I think that's huge. And then realizing that sometimes you just might not get to eat what you want, if you realize it's not really aligned with what you believe.
I think and that's something I've been learning more and more about while working in food systems along our coast is the disconnect between where our food is coming from and where it's actually going. In Oregon, it's pretty astonishing how much of our seafood is exported and how much seafood we import. And it just doesn't make sense to my mind that we import 90% and we export 90%.
ED: One thing that I've been thinking a lot about, especially with the foraging workshops is Indigenous cultural practices. I read Braiding Sweetgrass [by Robin Wall Kimmerer] right before the clamming class last year and so it was in my mind. And so many of these concepts of the responsible harvest and such were in my mind, also thinking about Indigenous practices and foraging and how it's so ingrained in so many Indigenous cultural traditions. I'm just curious if that's something that you engage with in your work on the coast or if you all especially at Oregon Seaweed have relationships with the tribes on the coastal tribes?
AK: Yeah, I would love that. Right now we're still kind of new as a company and I have not had time to like focus on that, but I would love to connect with people out here. I read Braiding Sweetgrass and took a few classes in college about Indigenous Pacific Northwest tribes and learning the common misconception that went on for years that there weren't any people cultivating the land out here, that things were all just foraged for. And that was not correct. Things were definitely changed to improve growing conditions for a lot of species and just recently I’ve been diving back into that in the ocean world and how there were clam farms essentially. Not farms exactly, but people were building rock beds to bring clams to a specific area. And the rocks would encourage seaweed growth and all these other things. So it’s something I want to get into more and be able to have enough knowledge to start teaching about it more.
ED: That's actually something that I think about. There's this common misconception with all wild spaces or “wild” in our minds that there were not populated by humans or stewarded by humans. Yet for, millennia, [stewardship of lands and oceans] was done in such a natural way that shows the [Indigenous] understanding of ecosystems and relationships with the land and oceans. There was intentionality around it. I'm doing a ton of learning about that, too. And that's what I loved about Braiding Sweetgrass, the little elements of that throughout that kind of helped shape the way I see wild places.
AK: Yeah, I think the storytelling in that book is really something that hits a lot of people.
ED: Yeah. Is there anything else that you think folks in this community would be interested in hearing about related to seaweed and oceans and protecting the oceans that we haven't talked about?
AK: In my world of seaweed, it's been really apparent, at least working at farmer's markets selling seaweed to people, that people are kind of intimidated by these things that they don't know that much about. [I encourage people to] learn more about these products that we might not be so familiar with, from growing up in this culture.
But knowing and realizing that in order for these big things in our world to change, we need to be willing to make small changes, right? So whether it's changing your diet, or just learning more about what you're eating, or about where things are coming from, really just making those connections to our environment, and how we're impacting them and the things that we're doing every day. Yeah, and if that means taking a foraging workshop and just getting out there and experiencing, then great. But if also reading more books and doing more research on things that help you be more sustainable and walk lightly.
I’m so grateful to Alanna for taking the time to be my inaugural podcast guest. You can find her courses at www.shiftingtidesnw.com and you can follow her on Instagram at @shifting_tides_nw. You can also check out her seaweed farming work at www.oregonseaweed.com. Oregon Seaweed sells dulse seaweed on their website and at Farmer’s Markets around the state. Trust me, it is so delicious. Pairs quite well with clams :). Also, Alanna continues to teach classes with WildCraft Studios.
The Intertidal System and Foraging with Alanna Kieffer