In this episode, I talk with Lilly Hankins and Celeste Baskett who are both mental health professionals who are finding ways to use their skills to address the climate crisis. One way they’re doing that is through Climate Cafés focused on small group group discussions about climate grief.
Because climate grief is such a large part of the Cramming for the Apocalypse project, I thought it would be a great opportunity to introduce the topic by way of this interview. In this episode, I talked with Lilly and Celeste about climate grief, mental health in climate change, and privilege as it relates to climate justice.
Resources from the episode:
We mention Families for Climate where we know each other from. They’re a very cool climate justice organization in Oregon that is harnessing the power of parents, caregivers, and their children to work in coalitions to advocate for climate action. Full disclosure, I run FFC’s communications.
Lilly’s Google Doc of amazing resources
Generation Dread: Finding Purpose in an Age of Climate Anxiety by Britt Wray as well as the Substack newsletter
Climate-Aware Therapist directory (from Climate Psychology Alliance North America)-
Credits:
Cramming for the Apocalypse artwork by Amanda Burnham
Music by DayFox
FULL TRANSCRIPT: Climate Grief and How to Process It - Episode 2
Elizabeth: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode two of this podcast. The first one was published many months ago over six months ago, and I finally found some time and some resources to be able to do some light editing. And I have time to focus on this, and so I'm excited to bring an interview that I had with Lily Hankins and Celeste Baskett, who I talked to last May of 2023, so we'll reference some of the weather during that period of time, and about climate grief and dealing with climate grief and looking at it through a mental health lens, and Also, through a social justice lens it was a really great conversation, and I hope you enjoyed.
Thank you so much for joining us today for the next audio version of Cramming for the Apocalypse. I'm here, with Lilly Hankins and celeste Baskett. I wanted to talk with both of you because This book and this project is all really rooted in kind of my own Climate grief and trying to get past it and understand it and doing it in a way that is productive.
I really think it's important to delve into what climate grief is, what climate anxiety is, and then also how we process it. And so, so that's why I wanted to bring you here today. And so let's maybe just start with having each of you introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about yourself, your background and how you came to focus on mental health as it relates to climate change.
Lilly: Hi. Thanks for having me or us.[00:02:00] I'm Lily Hankins. And I'm a mental health therapist. I'm a LCSW licensed clinical social worker. I have been a therapist for about five or six years, and I worked in a various different settings. I went into graduate school, not necessarily knowing that I was going to be a therapist.
I sort of thought I might, I was in a social work program and I thought I might get out and do all this like big systems change community organize organizing type work. And I had a initial job doing some immigrant rights organizing out of grad school and then realized that I I function best and I'm most passionate about working with people in smaller groups or one on one and sort of veered back into the kind of individual work.
My current job where I've been for the past couple years is primarily working with teenagers In a school based health center. So I work with high schoolers. I'm also a parent. I have a seven year old daughter, so she was born in 2016. And although I have been pretty aware of climate and environmental disaster, environmental things throughout my life, like I remember when I was a teenager, I was sort of became aware of things and fires and wildfires and got involved with Sierra Club a little bit and then, But it's been kind of on and off, like my ability to look directly at it versus look away from it.
And when my daughter was born in 2016, and then six months later was the election of that year. And I remember having a conversation with a few of my friends who had small babies around that same time and, or were pregnant and feel, and, and just saying like, Oh yeah, I feel like one of the big things that has just happened and just been cemented with this. The election of Donald Trump is that we're, we as a country are not going to do anything about climate change and we've cemented the future of my child and it was, I went into a pretty dark place around it and kind of couldn't think about it for a little while and it was Coming to finding I had to kind of go through a journey and find my own places to land my climate grief and my climate anxiety as a parent and to this little person to be able to come back around and, and, and be where I'm at now and not that I have anything figured out at all, but it was, I think, two years ago, I discovered it was a friend of a family member introduced me to a podcast called how to save a planet I heard an episode with Ayana talking about her matrix of Venn diagram of like, what needs to be done, what are you good at, and what are you passionate about, and that's where you need to go with climate action. You don't need to do everything or solve [00:05:00] everything or have every answer, but also not doing anything because it's too big and scary.
Is also not helpful. So find your place. We need you come in. And I sort of started thinking, like, what is that for me? And then I was like, Oh, climate and mental health. Like, I know that this has been absolutely devastating for my own mental health. And I'm sure I just can't even, you know, and then that was my first kind of entry point into looking at that.
And then I was like, how are people dealing with this? And what's even happening? And I found various groups. One is the Good Grief Network. You That has like, you know, doing some really amazing work. I wanted to do one of their groups, I still haven't. But I, I instead found a group for parents that was worldwide and it was led by Elizabeth Biard, I'm not sure I'm pronouncing her last name correctly, but she wrote a book called Parenting in a Changing Climate.
Mm-hmm. .That was, I, I really rec, I strongly recommend for parents or caregivers who are dealing with climate anxiety or climate grief. Or any climate feelings. And I was just lucky enough to find her Zoom group. A Zoom group that she was running. And I think it was 10 weeks every Saturday for parents and caregivers of young children.
And there were people in the U. S., people in Canada, people in the U. K., and South Africa. It was really kind of incredible. I think there were like 10 or 12 of us. But just having this regular container and space to talk about All sort of elements and it was this structured group that she put together based on her reading and research and coaching practice.
It was, it was really, really, really powerful and and change things quite a lot for me in terms of just feeling like, okay, I have, I have somewhat of a direction that I feel like I want to go in. And then. Coming from that is actually where I found families for climate, which is a group that Celeste and I have have kind of landed ourselves in in terms of volunteering here locally in Portland, taking, [00:07:00] you know, they organize parents and families to take action and climate change and It was helpful.
I wanted to find some local stuff and connect with people here. So that, that was my next jumping point, but always with this interest of , how can I, I remember coming out of that group being, how can I create more of this for people for, I mean, I was specifically thinking about parents because that's where I came to it from, but everyone, right.
And This idea that it was it was so instrumental for me to have a place to process some of my own feelings and Thoughts and be a total emotional mess and crying and messy and silly and, you know, all the things and I wanted to, you know, I had this idea of like, I want to, how can I get involved in creating that more here for people?
So then I've been thinking about that for a little while and then got connected with Celeste through Families for Climate and then she and I have done a little bit of a pilot project around climate cafes that we can talk more [00:08:00] about.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Lily. How about you, Celeste?
Celeste: Well, I also am a licensed clinical social worker like Lily and also sort of started in mental health and then have moved, moved towards what can I do about the climate crisis?
And for me I grew up in the Bay Area in California and grew up in a family that spent a lot of time outdoors backpacking, hiking, cross country skiing. I mean, to some degree, I suppose it wasn't necessarily my parents. I mean, my parents did some of that, but I think it was just something that I, as a child and as a young person, really gravitated towards.
And I did Outward Bound one summer, and then I organized my friends in the next summer to do our own. Three week backpacking trip along the John Muir trail that goes from Yosemite up to Lake Tahoe. And so I've [00:09:00] just always been someone who just Wants to be in wild places and in nature. And that's I mean, and I love, I love people and I love living in a city and having all the things you have in a city.
But I always try to get out into nature when I can. And and so as a, as a social worker you know, you know, I started my career working for nonprofits. It's decided, I think, similar to Lily, that I was best in kind of a one on one kind of small group situation was sort of where my talents most came out.
And I started ended up worked in community mental health for a little while and then have been in private practice for a number of years now. And I have two children who are now 11 and 14. And I think that is where, even though [00:10:00] climate change has sort of worried me more and more. As, as I've gotten older, as the effects of it become more and more apparent, I mean living here in Portland and just all the changes we just can see every day right in front of us, terms of like the weather we're having right now, and I find myself often Googling, like I did it this morning, I was like, record dry.
May Portland, Oregon 2023 and I look through the results like looking for somebody to just sort of acknowledge this is not right. Yeah, like it is not supposed to have stopped raining this this early in May. Yeah, I can never. But you did. Yeah, you did the same one. Yes, absolutely. I did. I don't know if it was exactly the same words, but I was doing this sad and what is happening in May.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, I mean, when it was like 95 degrees in early May, it was like, this can't be [00:11:00] right. Like this. Yeah. And it's not. Right. It's not. Right.
Celeste: I've been here. I've been in Portland now 27 years. And so long enough to have sort of established this connection to Portland when the weather sort of was still.
What I thought of as Portland weather. Well, and, and Lily, I don't know what you found when you did that Google search, but I am always very disappointed by those searches. I find like, I did find like a couple of little news stories about the heat, you know, like you, like you said, Elizabeth 95 in what was that May 18th or 90 was 93.
I forget the record, the record temps at that weekend, but there's nothing on oh, well, how is our rainfall on track for how it normally is because it kind of seems like the spigot has been shut off. And as far as we can tell, it might not rain again until late October, like it did last summer when it finally it rained a lot more into early July, which was more typical, but then it just stopped.
So[00:12:00] I, I always find that kind of crazy making where there's nobody Sort of tracking that reporting on it online. Like, look what's happening. Here's where we're at. And I don't know, maybe that's a space that somebody could fill. Somebody wants to sort of put something out there that says, Okay, for those of you who are worried.
Look, I'm worried, too. And I think and that kind of leads into the work that Lily and I have started doing through Families for Climate with the climate cafes is just that feeling of, okay, I'm not crazy. I can sit in a room with other people and say. This has me scared. This isn't normal. This feels wrong.
And then have other people notice that too, just like we kind of are in this conversation right now. Lily, that's gratifying to hear you did the same Google search. Because I think what we've you know, what, what we've encountered and we can get more into that is that, you know, you just I think I [00:13:00] start to feel like a broken record with my friends and also just kind of a downer, oh, there she is again talking about her climate worries and but I think just to finish explaining a little bit more about my personal journey here my children.
I really love being in the outdoors also and my son who is 14 when he was maybe 10 or 11 he got really into birdwatching, which is so sort of surprising in some ways for just a young child to sort of get that specific of a passion, but he really has become quite. advanced in his abilities to, like, recognize birds and know about their behavior and very consistent in that as a passion for him.
And and so I think also just having children and seeing that, I mean, I'll cry if I say too much about it right now, but just to think like Oh, he can't [00:14:00] necessarily keep seeing birds his whole life because there might not be any, it's just so devastating. We'll use that word also to, to think too much about, I mean, and that's just like one little piece of
climate change, right, is, is being with wildlife.
And then there's all the other pieces about human health and economic impact. And you know, they, you are all very well aware of, but I think that like where it can hit for each of us. I think it kind of hit us personally in these different places where we think about what will be missing in the future or what the future could be like so.
So anyway, I also found myself going to families for climate to sort of figure out, well, what can I I need to do something. And then families for climate connected me with Lily and really has her experience. Of being part of these groups. And so I, you know, said Lily said, well, what if we try this?
And I said, great. So, but that gets us [00:15:00] more to kind of what we're currently.
Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, and actually, before we even get to that, I think it might, even just like briefly, so the terms like climate anxiety, climate grief, eco anxiety, all of that are fairly new to. To the world of climate justice, not that the feelings or emotions are new, but, I think that that's just beginning to be put out there.
I think I remember actually, I mean, this is what happens when my, you know, newsletter and my like stuff gets out into the world. Somebody commented on, I don't know, it was probably Facebook or something. you know, I'm down with the prepping, but like eco anxiety, like people are making up new words all the time and kind of like you know Dismissive kind of way, but I think that it's worth even just like a couple minutes of explanation of what is, what is it?
What is climate anxiety? What is climate grief? What is eco anxiety? It's kind of different term, terminology, all about the same kind of thing.
Celeste: Lily, you want to you want to take a start at that?
Lilly: [00:16:00] I'll take a stab. Sure. I mean, I think like, it's funny, I actually I feel like I should, I should be able to just Give you a really succinct, clear definition of these things. And I'm yeah, it's kind of might go all over the place, but I think you know, there is, I will name that.
I think I've seen sort of in the resources and things that I'm tapped into people talking about that. Speaking about climate anxiety as if it's like something new is an, is sort of a there's an element of privilege in that in the sense that it's becoming more of a term that we're hearing in the general population because people who have been so insulated from the immediate effects of changing climate and like environmental disasters are starting to really feel worried about it.
And Impacted by it in a new way, whereas. You know, frontline communities, people in like the global South or whatever other terminology you want to use people who are in places that where [00:17:00] the sea level is rising and their homes are threatened and there's been widespread famine and people are dying because there's literally not enough food because of changes to the weather, like they've been.
Affected by it for decades. And obviously had plenty of anxiety or worry or grief or stress or, you know, any number of emotional and mental health effects of all of that for decades, or, you know, generations if we think about The, you know, climate as a, or climate change as related to colonialism and genocide, right?
Like decades back in our country, like native folks have felt feelings about the devastation of the environment for many, many generations. Centuries. Yeah. Yeah. And and yes, there's. More and more attention being paid in the recent years to these ideas that specifically because the effects of climate change and, environmental changes are becoming so visible and [00:18:00] constantly in the news more and more people are experiencing symptoms of anxiety.
So, like, worry, difficulty sleeping You know, not be overthinking and being in head in our head about worries about specific to whether it's worrying about whether there will be birds in the future or worrying about wildfires are worrying about things like that more and more people are experiencing those kinds of symptoms.
Also grief, some more of the sort of sadness, like things that might be more associated with like depression, sadness, hopelessness, feeling like it's worthless. Feeling like yeah, I mean, just grief, right, which is to say, to be saying goodbye to beloved things to be looking around us and, and seeing things disappear or beloved places.
There's a whole vocabulary out there about new, it is true like a whole new vocabulary kind of being, being. Carried about the word like solastalgia, I [00:19:00] think is being brought into the, which is, it's, it's, it's grief and sadness over a place place that is changing a beloved place that is no longer the same.
And, and there's, there's a whole other world of vocabulary around that too. I was going to say something else about anxiety. Oh, to say that You know, in the world, in the mental health world, there's this we have to diagnose people with things in order to have people come in and, you know, especially if insurance is going to pay for therapy for someone, right.
Or to be able to say like, this is sort of the bucket of thing that you're dealing with and that's what we're going to work on. Americans, right. Super and, and related to insurance structures and billing and. Profit and it's so annoying. But there is an important thing that from what I've read and learned about in the mental health and climate overlap world, that it's very important not to [00:20:00] pathologize, not to say, to say that actually feeling anxious at the prospect of continued environmental change is very normal.
Like that is a normal human reaction. And if you feel that way, Okay. That's fine. It does not mean you have a mental health disorder and the same with, with grief and despair and all the things it's, it's normal to feel. These things and yet we don't talk about them or talk about it. I don't know if I gave a great definition.
Elizabeth: No, that's perfect. And actually you've touched on some things that we'll talk about later too, but But let's kind of parlay that into kind of why we're talking here today. So just as some context for people listening. I know these two from families for climate because I run their communications. And.
It's an amazing climate justice organization that really is working at the local Oregon level, but also in partnership with other states. I think it's really being a part of a coalition of, of climate justice organizations, locally, regionally, and even nationally, in some [00:21:00] sense and And one of the programs that Lilly and Celeste are bringing to this to Families for Climate and to Oregon in kind of a formal and informal way, I guess, is the Is climate cafes.
Which is a way of of addressing or addressing is the word but really honing in on this climate anxiety climate grief, and particularly, it doesn't, I imagine it's probably not just parents that are coming to these but I think that, you know, what you two spoke to is really, you know that that anxiety heightened so much more when you had a kid and you.
And when Your kids experiences start, we're starting to be affected because of climate change. And, and, you know, I get teary every time I think about it, because that is really what, was something that was a, you know, I thought about before having my son who I was pregnant with him in 2016, during that horrible election.
And Has [00:22:00] just heightened more and more as I think about what the future looks like, and it's so unknown. You know, we just, you know, we have a sense of what it could be, but it's so different from what our parents had think about for the future for us. Anyway, so, my, kind of bringing it back to the climate cafes.
I would love it if you could talk about what climate cafe. Cafes are and how they are involved in, you know, in addressing climate anxiety and what is their purpose and goal?
Celeste: Yeah, let you take that one Celeste.
I'm sorry, Lily, did you say you want me to start on that? Yeah. Okay, I'll be I'll be happy to say a bit about it and then and then you can jump in. So, as I understand it, you know, the climate cafe model was borrowed from the model created to talk about death and dying called death cafe is because facing mortality is something that people have trouble doing or talking with their family members about What did they want to happen if they you know, say needed to be put on life support or, you know, how do you arrange for things or just death [00:23:00] and dying in general.
And so this model was created to help people, face more directly talk more directly about. Difficult, painful topic. And and Lily, you may know who the name of the person. Do you know the name of the person who then, like, decided to use that model to address climate feelings about the climate?
I could look, I could do a little Googling. Yeah. Okay. Or read back through the notes of the trainings that I went through, but I can't remember. Okay. So then that model was borrowed basically to get, you know, the idea is you bring a small group of people together in a space with.
facilitators, where the goal is just to express, you know, feelings, thoughts, what's on your mind and not to focus so much on, okay, what, what do we need to do? What do we need to do? Because that is so often where we as humans go and, and in part we I can't do that because it's a [00:24:00] defense mechanism that people engage in because it's hard to feel.
It's very hard to feel helpless. It's hard to feel out of control. And it, has some very good adaptive purposes to say, okay, we're going to do something about this bad thing happening to me, whatever it is, whether
it's, a family member who's sick or you've How to fight with somebody or, you know, whatever the difficult thing happening is in life., it can be helpful to, to take action, but it is also then becomes a problem then when. People can't sit with their feelings and end up doing a lot of things that aren't very helpful to do and then the feelings are left there unattended to, and we can't and I think people can also end up feeling quite guilty.
When we go into doing mode, because then we, the idea of doing is, well, I'm going to fix it, and then you, and then [00:25:00] when you can't, because it's something often that is much bigger than you are there's this feeling of, I'm not doing enough. I did the wrong thing. I didn't do it soon enough. And then that guilt can then become very You know, it's heavy and it and guilt doesn't promote good action, guilt kind of weighs us down and actually can prevent us from from doing it doesn't serve a good purpose there and then becomes not adaptive. And so so creating a space then for people to talk about this is how I'm feeling and to try to notice the pressure to do and kind of take that out of the room. I think can be very helpful for people to have that space that we don't often find in other parts of our lives.
So that's a little introduction. Lily, what else do you want to say about the model?
Lilly: I think you, you covered most of it. That I would, I would highlight. I was just going to mention that, [00:26:00] I mean, I don't know that if there's a specific individual to call out, but the, it's the Climate Psychology Alliance.
That is sort of the group. There's a network of folks, there's a Climate Psychology Alliance UK, and that has been doing a lot with climate cafes and then More recently, the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America is the group that put the training on that I went to that kind of got me thinking about doing this.
And Yeah, I think the other piece that I would just add to everything that you said, Celeste, about kind of the purpose and benefit of having a space like that. I think that, so what we were just talking about, right, like how frustrating is when you do a Google search for why is the weather so different and there's nothing and it's like, oh, okay, I guess no one's worried about this, right? It's just me. And so the power of Being able to be in a space with people who are concerned together.
Makes it feel like this is [00:27:00] something real, and it can be really validating and recentering, but and I think it also combats this one of the big things that I think is is so challenging about when we're looking at the ginormous problem that is climate change and environment, our relationship to the environment in general is that.
You look around, and things are just going on as normal, and people aren't talking about it, it seems, or thinking about it, it seems, and people are just sort of still doing these things that, on the one hand, we are being told are, like, actively harmful and devastating, and on the other hand, we're doing them every day and The fact that we don't talk about it and that we're not reckoning with the feelings of it, I think not, not dealing with the feelings allows us to keep doing.
The harmful things not not each of us right because also there's all of what Celeste said about guilt and it's not about getting into like a guilt place about, when, when [00:28:00] did I drive my car or whatever but as a society as a collective, the fact that we're not talking about it or reckoning with it I think we have to have it in order to keep perpetuating all the harm on the environment, we have to cut ourselves off from our feelings about it.
And so, you know, Reconnecting to those feelings about it individually has huge benefits, but I also passionately believe that like collectively does too.
Elizabeth: Absolutely. Yeah. And one of the things that like, I've, I've been thinking and writing about a lot in this whole project and kind of moving forward with my own emotions and action is that those emotions can be so paralyzing.
You know, you know, some people might kind of like you said, Celeste, there's, it's a double edged sword. You could like take action in lieu of like addressing the emotions. And then that's, also during harm, but it's also paralyzing. And like, because it does feel, I think for me prior to actually finding kind of like with the, I have [00:29:00] the same You know, Dr.
Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson Venn diagram moment, where I'm like, this is where I can get involved. But prior to that, it's like, and it's, you know, it's still like go back and forth feeling like it's futile, whatever I do does not matter, because we need the worldwide governments to get together and solve this problem.
But that's not useful either. And so, how, how does processing emotions kind of, you know, I know that, like, the end goal isn't necessarily, you know, the goal of these climate cafes are to really process and get through emotions, but how do those. That, how does that processing get you out of the paralysis, get you out of that kind of yeah, that feeling stuck mode in some ways.
And, and also I'll just say this too. I feel that's the same way with, you know We're all in Portland and thinking about the Cascadia subduction zone earthquake. While it's not climate change specific, it's [00:30:00] exactly the same kind of disaster that we could be experiencing on a grand scale with climate change.
And while everybody I know in Portland is like, Oh yeah, it's going to happen. And they think about it. But it's so big and scary to even think about how to even prepare on an individual basis. And so there is like a paralysis with that too. That I, and one friend in particular, she's like, I can't even think about it.
It scares the shit out of me. So I am not going to think about it. And that I think is really the same thing as climate grief and in a nutshell and so I don't know I guess maybe responding to my many different thoughts and ideas around that paralysis and what that means in these formats of like the climate cafes.
Celeste: Well, I really like what Lily said about. There's something about being in a group, being in a collective. [00:31:00] Being in a group of people who then are you hear them feeling some of the same things you're feeling that That more is possible when we share our feelings with other people and even if it's just one other person like one on one with a therapist or a friend but I think getting it together in a group like that.
There's even More of that power of like, okay, it's not, it's not just me, it's you and it's you and it's you and it's you. And there is that sort of paradox of doing and feeling that you're bringing up. Like is if we say, okay, we're getting together as a group and we're just gonna talk about feelings and not what we're, what we're doing.
And yet paradoxically attending to those feelings and. I think does lead to less paralysis. It does create room for more action. , [00:32:00] and sort of the mechanism of how that works, I guess, is you know, it, is not that easy to talk about. But but I think, recognizing our helplessness and our powerlessness to a degree, kind of paradoxically, I think then can create more room to actually feel okay, I have this little bit of power.
I can do this one little thing. And again, it sort of feels sort of mysterious, like, well, how do you explain how that works? And. And yet it does. Lily, do you, do you have more or Elizabeth? I see you. Do you have a thought?
Lilly: Oh, I, I love what you, what you were just saying. Plus, I think that's so that that is true.
And it's kind of, I don't know. I mean, it's, it speaks to like, I'm getting all excited because it's sort of like how I feel about therapy in general and like the magic of it taking, taking something and in relationship, shifting it. But the thing that like, there's like the image that was kind of in my mind when we were talking about this is like as if when our emotions are just with [00:33:00] us, and we're just holding them but also kind of holding them at bay, it's almost like this like water that we're trying to sort of hold up with a dam.
And, and we're just damn like fortifying the dam and like weeks spring and then we sort of damn it back up again. And if we can come, I think there's something that happens when we can attend to them. And let ourselves like, let the overwhelming wave flow over us and let it fully be felt and particularly be felt in relation or, you know, in the, in the witnessing of other people and witnessing other people sort of have their own waves that it's like, we can, there's a sense of movement, I think, and energy that's part of emotion.
Right, like emotions. That's part of what they do for us is they communicate to us that something is happening that's important and kind of lead us to want to do something. But, but when they're all like jumbled and and we're trying to sort of tamp them down because we need to get through our day sometimes we can't tap into that.[00:34:00]
The power of them. So I don't know. This is maybe kind of just my, this is maybe just me actualizing, like sort of how I think about doing the emotions work of one on one therapy, but also in like groups like these, it helps sort of funnel all of that energy, like from this like swirling thing that isn't really going anywhere to, okay.
Like all of this grief and all of this worry. A makes sense and B has important information for us about things that are important to us and our values and what we care about. There's this is like a, I think this is like from an act, which is a type of therapy, trainer, but they talk about like within, within wounds are our values like where we hurt care.
Elizabeth: And it's a good thing that we care and that we're feeling these feelings. You know, shows empathy and compassion.
Lilly: Absolutely. And, but, but on their own, but they can be just so over, [00:35:00] it's so overwhelming and it's so overwhelming to feel like you're just, you're feeling these, but the world is going on all around you.
So is it something wrong with me? And so to be able to say no, no, this is where this is the good stuff. This is where the power is. And this is where we can fuel ourselves to do what is needed and do what is possible. And everything is not possible and we can't do everything, but like, What we can shift them from something that feel to build the emotions right from something that feels debilitating and makes it impossible to take action and makes us want to numb.
I mean, that's another piece right as if we're not tending to these emotions in a way, in some way, then we're going to try to numb out to it right and whether that's TV or substance use or whatever it is we try to sort of escape somehow. So, if we're in, they can, they can be Debilitating, but if we can tend to them correctly, they can also be really fueling for continuing to [00:36:00] show up in a situation that feels impossible all the time.
Elizabeth: Yeah. I love that water metaphor too, because I think that like I was, when you were talking about, I was like, I was taking that also, this is the writer and me envisioning, Oh, well, you know, maybe it's like writing that wave, like everybody creating a boat together that we can all get in and kind of go with that wave.
And so there's that. You know, when I'm thinking about that metaphor with the project that I'm working on and like building skills, we can build a much stronger, you know, for, you know, boat and that can help ride out that wave together as a community. And I think that that's that's true in in processing these emotions as well.
So Lily, you had talked about this when you were when you were kind of describing the definition of climate anxiety, but I've been really trying to reckon with it as well. They're like, the very white privileged framing around it. And also you know Is that the environmental scientist Sarah Jackette Ray, have you [00:37:00] read her her scientific American story?
Let's see. I have the quote here. She's not necessarily invalidating climate anxiety because it's there and it's real. And I think, and Brit Wray talks about this kind of paradox as well of privilege and her book. Generation dread.
She compares it to white fragility where it can quote, suck up all the oxygen in the room and devoting resources toward appeasing the dominant group. And I think that that's, you know, you think about, you know, like white women's tears, you know, when somebody is explaining their experiences of racism, and then it becomes about the white woman's emotions.
And so, you know, I think that I, you know, being, for those of who are listening and not seeing, like, we're all three white women so I guess my question, and this is something I'm navigating too, because I really do work to try to bring a climate justice approach to the framing of things.
So the question is like, do you see this? And you kind of answered that [00:38:00] already, Lily, but also how do you think we, meaning white folks in particular, especially those of us who are over the last, like, decade or so, really coming to terms with the fact that not only is this affecting us, it's affecting the entire planet and has been for decades specifically for communities of color, for people in lower income Income countries.
So both acknowledging our anxiety while also not sucking up all the oxygen in the room, like how, what I guess are your thoughts about that and recommendations for those of us who are really need to process these emotions, but also need to do it in a productive way where we're contributing to the oxygen versus sucking it up.
Celeste: I mean, I, I think my thought on that is a little bit like on the. You know, this overused metaphor of on the plane where they're like, you've got to put your own oxygen mask on before you assist the person next to you. We [00:39:00] all need to take care of our own stuff. And we can't Show up for, our coalition building and building those bridges across different communities, whether it be race or culture or nationality or and sort of tending to ourselves.
And I think that's where, when we've been talking about, like, like Lily's idea of holding all the emotions behind the dam, we aren't able to be as helpful, to do as much, to be as productive. And so, we do need to take care of ourselves. And sort of, whatever the way that is for each individual, not everybody, it's not everybody who wants to come to a climate cafe and talk about it, but for some people, This is really in my way.
Like I can't think about anything else. And so, yeah, I guess I don't think that it has to be taking like I guess the oxygen is already there in the, in the [00:40:00] metaphor you use, like sucking up all the oxygen, all the air in the room. It's like if, if you're sort of making sure that you've got your own oxygen supply and sort of however you can, and then you can kind of turn and be available and sort of let there be then air for other people to my hope is that that's That's that's how it works.
Lily, do you have thoughts on that?
Lilly: Yeah, I mean, I was, I just I feel like this question is so valuable and I I definitely don't feel like I have. The answer, or like we're perfect answers, and I just appreciate that it's yeah you bringing into the conversation I think, yeah, I agree with what you were saying Celeste about.
We're so, you know, incapacitated or paralyzed by these feelings. We don't have much to give anyway. To racial justice efforts or to climate justice efforts so it does, [00:41:00] I do think that there's, there can be room for both room for making space for climate anxiety for those of us who live in these very protected privileged, you know, experienced so much privilege related to all of it.
I mean, I think the thing that I was thinking about was you know, be making sure that this is part of the conversation and that we when we, you know, when we get to the point where we're kind of the wave has washed over us, and we're back in the place where we can recognize our agency. And, you know, this is helpful because we can We need to move out of helplessness, like those of us in positions with more access to resources, more access to wealth, mobility, those kind of things like we, we actually do have a lot that we can do.
And it is our countries that are responsible for like the vast majority of emissions right if we're just talking about climate and so actually, We have, we need to work through our stuff to be able to then take accountability for [00:42:00] our , disproportionate role in how we got here and what needs to change.
Like, and, and it is the like level of resource consumption and emissions use and those kinds of things that those of us that are white people with wealth and with cars, for example that need to, like, Figure out ways to shift our lifestyles and put, put pressure on our governments.
Yeah. Use that corporation. Like we actually need to use, we, that we need to use our privilege and not be so paralyzed by, ah, it's overwhelming. And so, so we need to get, figure out a way to work through our stuff to be able to then show up in a meaningful and useful way, and then be ready to not be the ones that are saying, here's what we need to do, but ask what do we need to do, what do you need from us, what resources do you need from us , the big call is like in the, you know, I'm, I'm blown away and so moved and impressed by the youth climate movement.
Right. And there's a lot there in that, you know, yeah. [00:43:00] It shouldn't just be them and let's all show up for them and like, you know, all of that. But you know, they've got their language clear in the kind of climate strike world around, like, listen to frontline communities, bring them to the table and do what they say.
Stop talking over them. Stop having, you know, the U S and Canada be the leader of these meetings. Like let's bring the people That are directly impacted to the table and then ask them what they need and then resource them. So, I think, yeah, getting our, getting our feelings in order so that we can show up in that way is, is what we need to be doing.
Elizabeth: Yeah, and seeing it in like, in through the lens of like racial justice as well is helpful because I think that like that's what a lot of people of color and Grassroots organizations that have been doing the racial justice work for decades have been saying, you know, to the white people who are just coming around to systemic racism is that you need to do this work on your own and [00:44:00] unlearn certain things without relying on People of color to teach you.
And I think it, it sounds like it's very much the same. Like that's where these climate cafes and these processes that you can work through, other people who are also working through it and kind of that unlearning process and learning process and dealing it with yourself. It's apt.
You know, the, the metaphor around the oxygen mask, I do think it is such a valuable way to think about it is like, that's how we need to, you know, we need to make sure that we are addressing ourselves first before we can even give back.
So I have just like a couple more kind of wrapping up questions, but I guess my, my last one is like, what suggestions do you have for people who are really deep into the worry about climate change and what. you know, you know, there's climate cafes, but like, what are other resources that you think that they should seek out? And you've mentioned a few already, so it might, you know, we could just recap some of them.[00:45:00]
Lilly: So yeah, I would, so what I would say to someone struggling first is like, you're not alone. And a lot of people are worried and don't be. Put off by the fact that when you do those Google searches, you don't find anything, right? Millions of other people are worried about this.
And so you named Gen Dread, which I, is one of my favorite, like, book resources.
Elizabeth: And which is also a book by Britt Wray. So it's a newsletter, Gen Dread, and then also the book Generation Dread by Britt Wray, which is, yeah, yeah, kind of like the book on climate, I think right now, yeah.
Lilly: And, and, you know, particularly positionality-wise, right? Like, it's one that hits home for me because of her age, her like sort of generational place, her, she's also a white woman, she's Canadian, but has a similar level of like sort of privilege and access. As, as me and anyway, yeah, so, and then for parents, the [00:46:00] parenting and a changing climate book I cannot recommend that one enough.
That one's really great. And Good Grief Network has a 10 step program that I haven't participated in or been trained in how to run it or anything, but I'm aware of their program and I've heard Britt Wray talks about having gone through one of their groups. I just follow them on Instagram and they just posted a lot of really useful things.
And there is a burgeoning kind of growing. Network of what's called climate aware therapists that are not, I would say it's, it's not huge yet, but on, I think it's the climate psychology alliance of North America's website, you can find therapists in your area that are advertising themselves as being climate aware.
So You know, aware and willing to work on this with you. But yeah, I will send you the Google doc that I have. It has a bunch of that stuff and a [00:47:00] few other things. Yeah. Thank you.
Elizabeth: And is there anything else that we haven't talked about here today that you think is important to share?
Lilly: I might've said this already, but like, I, one thing that I just feel like important is important to drive home with this conversation that I feel more and more clarity about all the time. Is that. There's, you know, the systems that are incentivized to not have us change what we're doing, right, like fossil fuel interests and corporations and capitalism and things like that are very interested in not having us feeling these feelings or aware that we are feeling these feelings and really interested in us trying to find solace when we're feeling uncomfortable or worried in buying things or in like continuing to engage in the exact systems that have gotten us to this point and will continue to make it [00:48:00] worse if we can't make change.
And so, yeah, the power of having feelings and owning them, and Being willing to, to look at them and, and being brave enough, because I think one of you, you said that like you have a friend who's like, I can't think about it. I don't want to think about it. I can't think about it makes me too scared and like totally makes sense.
And when we think about these things and we let ourself feel them, and we can be vulnerable with each other about our feelings about them and give that gives permission for someone else to then be vulnerable or feel the feelings that is what that is one of the things we need to do to fight against this.
This effort that is continually in place to help to separate us from all of this.
Elizabeth: I love that. I mean, that is, that is so true. Like, I don't think I'd ever thought about it in those terms that's like shopping is, there is like therapy, but, and that's like, yeah. And we're like, have this constant messaging that this will [00:49:00] make, this will make you feel better.
And I'm so alone and all that. I mean, it's, you know, that is an example of everything that we experienced. It's like the negative. You know, parts of capitalism. And yeah, I'm going to be thinking about that the rest of the day.
Celeste: Yeah, that's great, Lily. Thank you so much for that.
It makes me think about how my son, my 14 year old, he has I feel like one way he's coping right now is he's been reading Thich Nhat Hanh books. He kept, he checks them out from the school library, like at his middle school. He came home.
Elizabeth: I love your son. I don't know him, but like everything that you've said about him, I'm like.
Celeste: He, he really is a, he really is a beautiful guy. He came home with a new Thich Nhat Hanh book this week from his school. And he said, my middle school library, they had to get this from mcDaniel's.
Yeah. Like they had to, it wasn't even at his school, but they like did an interlibrary loan, so he could have the next one. And anyway, I feel like [00:50:00] just, just focusing on being able to be in the now, in the present, and, and to come together with other people. And, and neither of those things is, You know, buying something.
Neither of those things is what movie am I going to watch? What, you know, you know, it's just about sort of being in the present, connecting with other people. I think those are just such powerful tools that we all, you know, have available to us. If we can, you know, hopefully we all have those available to us and we can help other people have those available.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I love that. This has been really, really wonderful. Thank you both so much for taking the time to just chat about this. Cause I think for me, it's just like also my process is talking with other people about all elements around climate grief and And also the [00:51:00] things that we can do to kind of combat climate grief and climate change in general.
And so I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today.
Celeste: Thank you, Elizabeth. Yeah, this is a, I love this conversation. Thank you. Me too. Yeah. It was a great opportunity. Thank you for the work you're doing. Oh, thanks. I love the work you're doing.
Elizabeth: What's the like next steps for the climate cafes for we're,
Lilly: we're figuring it out.
Yeah. I think. We, we ran two, we ran an in person one this spring and then a virtual one. And it's kind of been a learning opportunity. They both were great. And I don't know, I'm, I'm was, I'm definitely particularly think it's powerful to be in, in person with people. So that one was like, Ooh, that one. I really feel like was a wonderful pilot.
And I think we're figuring out when we're going to offer them more. We were like, really want to, I think we're open to running more of them. [00:52:00] And it seems like the best, the thing, one learning piece that we have is it might be easiest to find groups of people that want to engage if we're kind of coming into an established group of folks that already have, you know, some connection to each other and are doing things regularly, we kind of just put it out there and You know, for anybody to come and it was, it was great, but I think the getting the word out and getting turnout we're still figuring out how to do that, but we don't have an active one planned yet.
Climate Grief and How to Process It with Lilly Hankins and Celeste Baskett - Ep. 2